A collaborative effort to join the words of JRR Tolkien & Joseph Smith

The Great & Abominable Bodleian Library at Oxford

At the very end of last year I proposed a final solution to the mystery of 2 Nephi 27. If you want the context around my search for an understanding of that chapter you can read this post about a dream I had several years ago.

For some reason it felt really good to get that proposed solution published before 2024 ended. It felt like I had barely met some deadline, just in time. That’s not proof that I’m right about what I proposed there but I am still embracing it at the moment even though as far as I know I am the only person on the planet who thinks the Silmarillion is the prophesied book that the “learned” would reject. That would make JRR Tolkien the “not learned” man spoken of in that chapter of the BoM.

Since publishing that post, I’ve had a persistent question in my mind: is the book referenced in 2 Nephi 27 related in any way to the Book of the Lamb of God prophesied in 1 Nephi 13? If so, is the Red Book somehow connected to the BotLoG? Meaning, does the content from the BotLoG come from the Red Book? In this post I’ll make the case that it is and does.

For one, Bilbo put considerable effort into his “translations from the elvish” and I suspect we don’t have everything he wrote down. For another, we learn from Faramir in LotR that in the archives of Gondor there were plates of silver and gold that contained writings that none could read. I can’t help but think that King Elessar included those writings in the copy of the Red Book he had compiled. That’s just a guess, however. But the point is, the Red Book had some exceptional content in my opinion.

As outlined in my Dec 31st post, Tolkien presented a Silmarillion manuscript to his publishers fairly early in his writing career, which means he had something substantial enough to present for consideration even if it was not actually completed.

But I also know that his son, Christopher, spent significant time and effort creating his own Silmarillion manuscript, an effort that he in some ways regretted, as Bill has recently pointed out on WJT’s blog. Why would Christopher have to work so hard at this? Why not publish the existing manuscript that his father had prepared?

In theory, the answer is due to the variations of the tales that his father had written over the years and therefore Christopher undertook the task to synthesize them into a single and definitive tale. That is probably true in part.

I’ve got some compelling evidence that something is amiss in that narrative, however. In Tolkien’s published letters, he estimated the combined word count of The Silmarillion and LoTR as 1 million words:

Ridiculous and tiresome as you may think me, I want to publish them both – The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings – in conjunction or in connexion. ‘I want to’ – it would be wiser to say ‘I should like to’, since a little packet of, say, a million words…is not very likely to see the
light, even if paper were available at will.

Word count would be very important to get right as it would heavily influence his publishers on whether to incur the expense of production. Tolkien acknowledges this in his letter, so I tend to believe he would take some care to give them an accurate number so as to increase his chances they’d say yes. If anything, he might UNDERestimate rather than not. In fact, 1 million was an underestimate. That was irrelevant though. His publishers were very much daunted by the size, saying:

Your letter has indeed set us a problem! It would not have been easy to solve before the War; it is much more difficult now with costs of production about three times what they
were then. In order to see more precisely what is involved would you tell us whether there is any possibility of breaking the million words into, say, three or four to some extent self-contained volumes.

In a letter to a competing publisher, Tolkien gets even more specific on word counts for the two works:

I had in my letter [to Unwin] made a strong point that the Silmarillion etc. and The Lord of the Rings went together, as one long Saga of the Jewels and the Rings, and that I was resolved to treat them as one thing, however they might formally be issued. I noted that the mass naturally divides only between The Silmarillion and The Lord (each about 600,000 words), but that the latter is not divisible except into artificial fragments.

And I think with that nugget, we can dispel any notion that Tolkien was badly estimating the size of each work. Why? Because the LoTR comes in at ~500k+- words (estimates vary depending on whether the appendices are included). Granted, that’s not quite 600k, but it’s not too far off. The Silmarillion, by contrast, is a mere 130k words. How could Tolkien have possibly been that far off on one vs the other? In an editor’s note to explain the discrepancy, it simply states:

Tolkien was overestimating the combined length of the two works by several hundred thousand words.

It would be more accurate to say “overestimating the Silmarillion by a factor of nearly 5.” And before you think to yourself “yeah but the Silmarillion wasn’t yet in manuscript form so it would be hard for JRR to estimate its size” let me make you aware of this statement in the same letter:

I profoundly hope that [Unwin] will let go without demanding the MS. and two months for ‘reading’.

So there was a manuscript and therefore Tolkien had a reasonable way to estimate its word count.

Well, what happened to it then? I’ve got a theory that the answer to how we got from 600k words to 130k words is best explained by what Nephi says here:

And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord…

Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles…

And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the [foundation] of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles;

In other words, the Great and Abominable Church conspired to withhold a sizable portion of Tolkien’s Silmarillion content.

I realize this could call into question Christopher’s motives and that by all accounts he was a staunch advocate for staying true to his father’s writings, but even a well-intended Christopher could have taken things out for reasons he believed were good. For example, he could have done so to supposedly protect his father’s reputation post mortem (to say nothing of protecting his father’s lore as a viable money-making venture), depending on the content of what was removed. He could have been persuaded or manipulated into doing so, threatened even. Or I suppose he may not have been as good a son as we would hope.

I think more likely, however, is that Christopher did not have access to that manuscript or all of the source material for it. Tolkien sold some of his papers for a paltry sum to Marquette University, including some early manuscripts. I can’t imagine he’d be so careless as to sell an unpublished Book of the Lamb of God, however, so I doubt the original Silmarillion manuscript was part of that sale.

His other papers are now possessed by Bodleian Library at Oxford. Truly, I can’t think of worse stewards than two uppity institutions of higher learning. In fact, if there is any group in the world that would be aligned with the Great and Abominable Church it would be those very same “learned” institutions that Tolkien snidely referenced in his letters. These are the people who he said looked down on his works as mere “unprofessional trifles” and not worthy of attention from the learned. In the BoM the learned are condemned for their rejection of God’s truth. Oxford is as “learned” as it gets.

Could it be that they possess the true Book of the Lamb of God and are the ones who sanitized it before sending it out to the world as the Silmarillion? Could they have even kept Christopher from the full account, leaving only specific manuscript portions that would suit their ends?

Instead of speculating too much on that idea, let’s review what the BotLoG is supposed to contain and see if it fits this theory:

The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

The BotLoG has to have:

  • a record of the Jews (which could be the Noldor or some other subset of Eru’s children)
  • a record of the covenants of the Lord made with the house of Israel (Noldor)
  • “many” of the prophecies of the prophets

So far we’re doing pretty well. The published Silmarillion contains all of that. Oh wait, and:

and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord,

I don’t think anyone would argue that the Silmarillion contains the fullness of the gospel. However, Nephi tells us what will be stripped away from this book by the Great and Abominable Oxford Bodleian Library. Like I quoted above:

they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

They stripped out chunks of the “gospel” and chunks of the covenants. Huh. That seems to fit the Silmarillion pretty well, actually. It’s got a history or record and some of the covenants and some prophecies, but it apparently doesn’t have everything. Could the missing “gospel” account for roughly an additional 470,000 words? I can make a case for that since Mormon tells us after the account of what happened at Bountiful that:

And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

The full record of what happened at Bountiful must be relatively large and so it’s not too hard to imagine that a big chunk of the Silmarillion would have to be excised in order to prevent the fullness of the gospel from coming forth.

Implications

So if that missing info is at Oxford, what will happen? What is God going to do about it? He could send a couple of lazy lions to wreck the Bodleian library and abscond with the full Book of the Lamb of God. (Or maybe those lions are the ones responsible for the missing info??)

Regardless, that’s not what will happen. There is no recovering the BotLoG.

And that nugget is the real kick in the teeth I got from writing this post: not only is the BotLoG potentially already published as the Silmarillion, it’s NOT going to be rewritten or corrected from its incomplete form. This is a real paradigm shift for me. I’ve long thought that the REAL BotLoG would eventually supplant the one that was tampered with. That’s not at all what Nephi says will happen. He says the gentiles get this incomplete book and then God will supplement the book with the missing “gospel” that was stripped out:

…the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: …after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel…in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church…I will bring forth unto [the Gentiles] much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

Or at least “much” of it. But how? Through a corrected BotLoG? Nay. Here’s a hint from the angel of the source of this missing info:

I will manifest myself unto thy [Nephi’s] seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb.

We know what that is. It’s the full record of what occurred at Bountiful. And what’s in these new writings exactly? The very things withheld from the BotLoG:

And in them shall be written my gospel

Nephi then summarizes:

I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren.

And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.

In the next chapter, Nephi gives us another hint about the “other books”. When Nephi starts seeing the end of the world, the angel tells him he’s not allowed to write it down. Others will do that. Specifically, a dude named John [Ronald Ruel Tolkien].

19 I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.

20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

21 Behold, he [JRR] shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been [like, say, the Silmarillion, Hobbit, LoTR?].

22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.

23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men. [this might be hard to believe, but it sounds like the Silmarillion originally had some pretty lofty information that was stripped from it, and I believe this verse is referring to the 600k word count version of it.]

24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.

25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them. [it is strange that God would make such a big deal about Tolkien writing these things only to let the Great and Abominable church scrub it, but for some reason that is how it was to go down. But do not fret, my pet, for JRR was not the only one to record this crucial information that is now missing. Presumably the sealed portion of the BoM comes into play here as well as the full account of the Bountiful proceedings.]

26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.

27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John [Ronald Ruel Tolkien], according to the word of the angel.

In summary, Gentiles get the incomplete book of the Lamb first, then other books. Those books will accomplish the following:

These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them;

It isn’t a revised edition of the BotLoG that cures the Gentiles of their stumbling block, it’s the “other books” that help them realize what has been taken away. At the very least we know that those “other books” will include the full account of what happened at Bountiful based on the prior quote above that references the things that Nephi’s seed will write.

I used to think the BotLoG would be corrupted. That’s not actually correct because this is a modification by omission, not commission. In other words, what is published in this book is a true rendering, it’s just that a lot of info was removed from it.

And apparently there are no magic wands. The BotLoG could have come out unmolested, but the Great and Abominable Church does a very good job at sanitizing it and probably destroyed the true copy. God’s answer isn’t to publish a corrected version. He’s apparently not down for reproducing lost works (116 pages, anyone?). His answer is to use a different book to cure the breach caused by the incomplete first book, like he did with the Small Plates of Nephi.

Or as Nephi says:

These last records [the “other books”], which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first [the BotLoG]

And that means the BotLoG isn’t bad or wrong. It’s true as is, just incomplete — missing important information — and that’s why it doesn’t need to be re-published. You just gotta fill in the gaps with the missing gospel and end times visions recorded by others.

Holes In This Theory

One potential hole in my theory is that Nephi specifically states the BotLoG is a record “of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” and he seems to imply the book is written by them or contains witnesses by them. On the other hand, the book comes forth by way of “a Jew” (singular) but also “go[es] forth from the Jews” plural. The Silmarillion doesn’t seem to fit the idea of being a record of the 12 apostles, even if we pencil in the Valar as those apostles. It appears to be an elvish history.

How to resolve this?

The easy parts first. The “a Jew” part would be Bilbo who I suspect is also JRR. I know the general thinking is JRR is Frodo but it seems more likely to me that Bilbo would come back to deal with his own writings. The “from the Jews” part would be the writings and sources from which Bilbo drew the elvish part of his record. As for the record having something to do with the 12 apostles of the Lamb, well that’s not too hard either the more I think about it. Much of what is written in the Silmarillion’s earliest chapters could only have the Valar as the original source. What’s more is that the portions that were excised from the Silmarillion by the Great and Abominable Church could draw primarily from what was given by the 12 apostles and included originally in the BotLoG. One could surmise that these same witnesses were conveyed at Bountiful and through that record, the breach in the BotLoG will be filled.

Another potential hole is the title. Nephi describes “the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God” and later again calls it “the book of the Lamb of God”. I think you could argue that Nephi is saying that is the title of the book itself. As in, we should see that printed on its cover. Maybe, but I’m not sure that’s necessarily a requirement. It could just be that the Lamb commissioned this book and it is therefore his. Or that some of Bilbo’s translations from the elvish were from some book called The Book of the Lamb of God and it was those parts that the Great and Abominable Church have prevented from being included, and therefore the title difference is irrelevant.

Another hole is that Nephi clearly implies that the incomplete BotLoG will empower the Gentiles to find and scatter the Lehite remnant. The implication is that it imbues the Gentiles with some power and knowledge sufficient to accomplish this. The Silmarillion has been out for a while now and we have no indication that it has brought to pass any such impact.

But let me say this.

There exists a portfolio of AI-based military defense, space, and tech companies, mostly led by Peter Thiel, that have taken for their names entities from Tolkien’s writings:

  • Palantir
  • Anduril
  • Valar
  • Narya
  • Mirthril
  • Rivendell
  • Lembas
  • Athelas
  • Iluvatar
  • Varda Space Industries
  • Founders Fund (called “the precious”)

To be honest, I find many of those downright blasphemous. I can’t imagine invoking the name of Varda for a commercial endeavor. Actually a few years back I was involved in a short-lived startup in the crypto trading space and I toyed with the idea of invoking some Tolkien character in the name. The only thing that felt right was to call the main product “goblin”. The second product was “troll”, and the final one “orc”. I decided that at least these were honest names rather than a pretentious ones. Thiel has no such qualms and I find it obscene.

Vice President JD Vance is a noted Tolkien fan and is deeply connected to Thiel and this group. Elon Musk and his SpaceX venture is also heavily connected.

Trump is elevating these entities in his second administration and of course was the originator of the US Space Force. In recent years, the US has done almost a total 180 regarding UAP disclosures compared to the full denial and marginalizing of these stories since the 1940s.

Something is afoot in this country regarding tech, space, and aliens. If you recall, I tabbed Elon Musk as the potential “man among the gentiles” some time ago. Bill has consistently said that the Promised Land of the Lehites is nowhere on our globe but resides somewhere in space, specifically on the half of Eressea that was “sunk” at the breaking of the world. Maybe these gentile tech overlords have reached the same conclusion, if not in the same terms I am using here. All this talk of inhabiting Mars is just the easiest story they can sell to the public, but their real aim is something much greater. Unless, of course, my hollow Mars theory has any merit.

Vance has become a ubiquitous meme this year, and one persistent usage I see has him in various forms of LoTR characters, and particularly as Tom Bombadil:

Even the Rings of Power actor who portrayed Bombadil bore a striking resemblance to Vance:

Not that he is Bombadil, but that he could be a pretender — one who would feign to Bombadil’s title and rights.

And I think if these tech robber-barons achieve their end goals and use their power to find and scatter the Lehite remnant, it would be safe to say of them: “I beheld a [Silmarillion] book, and it was carried forth among them.”

Don’t be too hard on these gentiles yet, however, because as Nephi clearly states, they stumble because of what was withheld from the Silmarillion/BotLoG and as a result, they will be given an opportunity to repent of what they will do to the Lehites.

The Takeaway

My takeaway? I think we don’t need to look for any other Book of the Lamb of God and that it has already come forth in the form of the Silmarillion. There will be no other. And although filled with truth, it lacks much. There is no hope of restoring the original version of that book. That ship has sailed. We should look instead for the full account at Bountiful and “other books” that will restore what was lost. That information will go to the Gentiles after they find and scatter the Lehite remnant. As such, we might not expect much movement regarding these other records until we see these tech overlords accomplish their space goals. God knows how long that could take.

And what’s more, there will be two efforts in this regard that mirror each other. One will use ancient records as a source for leveraging technology and wealth through “AI” to attain unprecedented power that will enable a skywalk to a land of promise in the sky. Their tech will make them lords of a new land.

The other effort will use different ancient records to perform their own skywalk, one that relies not on technology or machines but on God’s wisdom and power. This group will visit the gentiles upon the promised land (after they scatter the Lehites) with a chance to repent and restore the ancient Lehites. Some of them will do so. Many will not. The resulting war will wipe the wicked gentiles off the promised land so that a New J-ERU-salem can be built and the full house of Israel gathered.

That’s my reading, anyway. As always, feel free to poke holes.

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6 Comments

  1. WW

    The angel tells Nephi the Book of the Lamb will first proceed out of the mouth of the Jew, which is the state at which it is “plain and pure”. This seems to imply some element of the book being communicated by speaking – the phrase is used I think 6 or 7 times, enough to assume this isn’t just a figure of speech. This Book will come from their mouth.

    It also appears that this Jew is different than the apostle John who the angel tells Nephi will write some things. In fact, one reading of 1 Nephi 14 is that John is not actually writing the output known as the Book of the Lamb, but rather he is writing just one of the inputs that is compiled into the Book of the Lamb. Since he is identified by the angel as one of the 12 apostles, this would make the most sense, since the Book is meant to be a collection of each of their own writings.

    Look at 1 Nephi 14:23:

    “Wherefore, the things which he [John] shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew…”

    Written in the book meaning, I think, John’s writings are not the Book, but they are found on it among the testimonies and writings of the other 11 apostles, which will then be communicated by “the Jew” via that individual’s mouth through speaking, which presumably someone else will write as they hear it.

    That might be hard to link to the Silmarillion and Tolkien.

    Additionally, as you mention, even the corrupted Book will give the Gentiles significant faith in Jesus, even as it blinds them and corrupts them. It is a strange dichotomy, with something in what was taken out of the book having to do with this blindness. I have my own thoughts on this, but It seems the corrupted book will also give the Gentiles some pretext or sense of rightness in scattering Israel when they find them on the land – they will think they are doing a good thing and be convinced of their own righteousness, perhaps.

    It’s hard imagining the Silmarillion being able to do either of those things – generate this faith in Jesus, and give a people cause or justification to scatter the inhabitants of the Promised Land and claim it as their own. I just don’t see the content in that book to do those things.

    I definitely have different assumptions regarding the Book of the Lamb, the Jew, etc., but those are a couple things that come to mind in thinking through your idea.

    • LEE

      Thanks for working it over, and no worries. I was pretty sure it wouldn’t fit fully into the ideas you have for this chapter. It would require some adjustments to fit into the story you’re working through. Just a few follow up thoughts:

      I see your point that the mouth of the Jew potentially implies a speaker and a writer. However, 2 Ne 16:17 uses very similar language (voice, speak, speech) to describe how a destroyed people will communicate to people in the future. The very next verse explains how this will happen and it’s because those people “will write the things which shall be done among them”. So I don’t think that mouth language is by necessity counter to what I’m describing here.

      On the John timeline, this was at first a problem with my theory bc as you point out, it says that this John will write this part of the vision *after* Nephi sees it, and by all timelines I know of, Bilbo preceded Nephi by a great many years. However, in this reading, Bilbo is John who is JRR. Meaning, he would write his own vision down again as JRR, well after Nephi. Nephi never says we will get what John wrote from John. Just that John is going to write it. He actually says the unnamed “others” will restore what was lost rather than John imo. John would write it, and what he wrote was true, but it will be culled by the GAC.

      I don’t think this post necessarily kills or conflicts w your proposed story by the way. It would preclude your guess on who the Jew is, but I suspect the stones you see being used to restore lost knowledge are among the “other books” category and perhaps house these lost testimonies of the 12. Although I have wondered where you place the full record of Bountiful in all of that. Nephi seems to pretty clearly state that is a big part of what will come about. Do you see that as separate from the stone stories (rose, etc)?

      Lastly, where did you read that the BotLoG would give the Gentiles significant faith in Jesus? I may have missed that?

  2. WW

    I think similar to your Gentiles thoughts, you would have to go away from plenty in my story to make it work, which is OK. I am totally fine changing my mind on everything, basically, if it makes more sense. But that means I will test things out to see if it makes sense!

    On the Gentiles’ faith in Jesus, I tied in the words of Jesus at Bountiful where he describes what happens to the Gentiles and calls them ‘blessed’ for the faith they will have in both him and the Father. This is as a result of the Holy Ghost, presumably in conjunction with their receiving the Book of the Lamb, even in corrupted form. See 3 Nephi 16. Jesus infers this faith and the lack of it among Israelites on the Promised Land will result in their power and ability to scatter those Israelites.

    Jesus specifically mentions that it is Pride among the Gentiles that will be their undoing after the receive the corrupted Book of the Lamb and the other records. My guess is this Pride might be in part based on what the Gentiles will believe about themselves based on what the GAC takes from the Book, but who knows.

    I think the Bountiful record is different from the Book of the Lamb, and it seems the Gentiles will get this after going to the Promised Land with the corrupted Book of the Lamb, along with other writings. The Book of the Lamb is limited to records written by the hands of the 12 apostles.

    On John, the angel says that he will write about the end of the world, including what Nephi wrote about but also picking up after that, and that this will be in the original Book of the Lamb. In your theory, do you have Tolkien having written about this in the original Silmarillion, then? Some larger, more detailed version of the Dagor Dagorath or something like that?

    • LEE

      I think you’re misunderstanding a little of what I’m saying, which is either due to me not explaining well or you might have skimmed this post. You pointed out that the Gentiles will have faith in God and the Father but I don’t think that has to come about b/c of the BotLoG. There is already a pretty large contingent of people that believe in Jesus right now and I think that is what Jesus is saying. The Lehite remnant? They do not believe in Jesus and that’s why the truth comes through the Gentiles per that chapter.

      But then in the very next verse (8), Jesus says “wo unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles” which I think proves this isn’t a group of people filled with overwhelming belief in Jesus. It’s just that enough of them do to warrant the truth being revealed through them.

      I agree about the Bountiful record coming out after they scatter the Lehites, which I also said in the post.

      On your final question, yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. I may not have stated this clearly but in the post I pointed out the word count discrepancy of the Silmarillion and what I was trying to say is that the missing 400k words is the vision of John and the records of the 12 that was culled from the original Silmarillion manuscript.

  3. WanderingGondola

    Hrmm, I don’t know… Gut feeling says there’s something off about this.

  4. WW

    I read the post, you just have to understand that this idea is so foreign to me and runs so counter to my own thinking, that I may not pick up on everything.

    I answered the Bountiful vs Stones question the way I did because in my story what is communicated via the Ithil Stone is The Book of the Lamb. You had asked how the Stones fit in with the Bountiful record in my story, and I was clarifying that point.

    Anyway, for me the ideas in this post are not workable for many reasons.

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