ChatGPT Responds to the Space Skeptics

I’ve been considering whether to put the interstellar reading of the BoM in a box for now. It’s a really fun theory that in some ways solves a lot of issues w the BoM geography, but it also presents a whole new set of problems like how do we place the Nephite and Jaredite journeys to the promised land as occurring in space? I decided to take the issue up with ChatGPT and I was actually impressed with the ideas it came up with.

I focused the discussion for now on just the Jaredite travels and I paid particular attention to the problems WJT highlights here. CGPT was pretty creative in coming up with solutions. I did prompt it with a few ideas and challenged it multiple times to come up with concrete ideas rather than just chalking it all up to “symbolic interpretation”, so this was certainly a collaboration, but CGPT was good enough to come up with unique ideas I had not considered. We’ll take WJT’s arguments one by one:

Earlier Use of Barges

WJT sums up the issue like this:

So the Jaredites first used barges to “cross many waters,” arriving in a wilderness “beyond the sea.” From there they continued their journey until they reached “that great sea which divideth the lands.” To cross this latter body of water, they built “barges after the manner which they had built” before, when they crossed many waters.

I trust the problems this poses for the space travel theory are obvious. There narrative has the Jaredites crossing at least two distinct bodies of water, but there is only one outer space. Therefore at most one of these can be a space voyage — presumably the second, across the Great Land-Dividing Sea, since that is presented in the text as a much more difficult and impressive feat than their earlier crossing of many waters. However, they cross this latter “sea” with barges of the same sort — built after the same “manner” — as those with which they had earlier crossed literal seas of water. Even without knowing any details of the technology the Jaredites used, I think we can safely say that a spacecraft would be constructed after an entirely different “manner” from a seagoing vessel.

CGPT disagrees with that last sentence. In fact, it pointed out pretty quickly that the “manner” question helps the space idea a lot more than it hurts. The rationale is simple: put a submarine in space w a modified propulsion system and you’ve got yourself a spaceship…one that is built “after the manner” of an ocean vessel.

When I first read WJT’s post last August I thought WJT made a great point about the earlier use of barges but I don’t think it’s too hard to reconcile. The proof is in the fact that the BoJ was suddenly worried about air and light. If he had made barges like this before and completed similar journeys, these problems would have already been dealt with and suggest pretty strongly that this journey is not just a difference in scale (sea vs many waters) but a difference in form (such as oceanic vs space). I mean, if you can cross a sea with no air and light, why can’t you cross an ocean? Surely you would also run out of air on the sea if it’s of any size.

In fact, CGPT estimates these barges would have run out of air within about 30 hrs and that to float across a relatively small sea would take nearly two weeks relying on natural currents. If we add on some “stiff winds” that are constantly at its back, a sail-less barge could make it in 3-4 days. I guess we just have to assume the prior journeys were short enough that they always made it to the other side in less than a day…OR…we can assume that the prior vessels were not actually airtight and that is why the BoJ suddenly raises this concern.

The BoJ is also concerned that without light “whither shall we steer”? This is an odd question but it proves that these barges had a steering mechanism and again, this is not their first rodeo as WJT points out. As such, since they succeeded before, they shouldn’t be too concerned about steering now, and yet they are.

Also, it’s specifically in the context of the absence of light that the steering question is raised. That suggests the BoJ would use some instrument in order to know “whither” to steer. Without light he can’t see if the steering mechanism is properly aligned. I’m imaging something like the Liahona Nephi had or some other heavenly compass. But again, if they had done these same types of journeys before then that problem should have already been solved. That suggests that while the barges for their promised land journey had a steering mechanism, their prior journeys must have relied on something else, like natural currents or winds…no steering mechanism. Otherwise, how could they have previously steered with no light?

After asking the question about steering, the BoJ also brings up the lack of fresh air. At first, it seems that God only answers the second question by telling him to make some holes. But you’ll notice that the BoJ doesn’t come back to the steering question the next time he talks to God. He instead says “Wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great deep in darkness?” which seems to be his way of saying “God, you solved my problems but this is going to suck if we can’t have any light on this journey”.

Why doesn’t he say “hey buddy, remember that question about steering that you didn’t answer”? I wonder if God DID answer the question. Meaning, his instructions about holes are somehow solving both problems: the air flow and the steering. I’m not sure how and neither is CGPT. The best it could come up with is that opening the hole not only introduces the flow of fresh air (more on this later) but it also somehow provides directional alignment.

I’m not sure how that would work without any light, though. CGPT says maybe opening the hole triggered a sensor that measures the ships movements relative to space particles. But the issue is that you would have to see the measurement and the steering mechanism in order to align them. CGPT suggests the steering mechanism might be near the hole and that the signal from it is auditory rather than visual and so he could adjust the steering until the audible sound either ceased or sounded normal. No light needed. Maybe. We’re having to really stretch here. But whether we keep him in the ocean or force him into space, the BoJ’s steering question is I think key to understanding some mysteries about this journey.

But again, the key here is that all these questions suggest that they will be in a very different environment and that despite the similarities to their first barges, this journey is so different that air and light and steering are major concerns whereas they weren’t before and I think that neuters WJT’s criticism here. It doesn’t make space a slam dunk by any means, however.

Making the Barges

WJT points out that most of the description of making the barges fits pretty well with the spaceship idea until you get to this part:

And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood

CGPT thinks there is something significant to God saying “make a hole” rather than “cut a hole”, by the way. It thinks that implies something more high tech than we typically imagine like a mechanical valve.

Here’s how CGPT and I resolved this one after several progressive prompts:

Secondary Air System in Spacecraft

1. Two Holes for Airflow Regulation:
   • The “hole in the top” and the “hole in the bottom” could represent intake and exhaust mechanisms for the air system. This system would allow the spacecraft to exchange stale air for fresh air stored in separate compartments or tanks.
   • In a spacecraft, air management is crucial, and a two-hole system could be interpreted as a method to ensure ventilation without exposing the interior to a vacuum or harmful external conditions.
2. Sequential Use of Holes:
   • The instruction to open “the hole” as needed might imply that only one hole is used at a time. For example:
     • If the “top hole” allows fresh air to flow in, it might connect to a reserve air supply.
     • If the “bottom hole” acts as an exhaust, it could release stale air into a filtration system or out of the craft when safe.
   • The choice of which hole to open would depend on the phase of air exchange the occupants are managing at the time.
3. Water in the Context of Space:
   • The mention of water entering could be a symbolic or simplified explanation for the risks associated with malfunctioning seals or systems in a spacecraft. In the vacuum of space, an improperly sealed “hole” might allow dangerous elements or conditions (such as a vacuum or harmful radiation) to breach the craft.
   • Alternatively, the water might be literal, representing condensation or liquid stored for survival and complicating the air system’s operation in the confined environment.

Why Two Holes if Only One Is Used at a Time?

In the context of an interstellar journey:

• The two holes might not be used simultaneously to prevent compromising the integrity of the sealed environment. Opening both at once might create a situation where air flows uncontrollably or where external conditions (e.g., vacuum or external gases) enter the craft.
• The alternating use could align with a cyclical air management system: one hole to introduce air and the other to expel it, but never at the same moment to maintain pressurization and safety.

This interpretation supports the idea of a sophisticated air-handling mechanism consistent with the challenges of space travel while aligning with the narrative’s emphasis on divine guidance and practical survival in a hostile environment.

I bolded an important part above that suggests these barges carried water with them as a means to support life with fresh water but also to create breathable air. CGPT and I riffed on this idea quite a bit and apparently it isn’t that wild of an idea even given today’s technology. We can imagine a system that relies on air pressure to recycle the old cabin air out as needed. You open “the hole” (this is important too…the BoJ makes two holes but he only opens a singular hole either at a time or ever) that contains air under pressure which forces new air into the cabin. The other hole might be designed to let old air out through a constant equilibrium mechanism.

But what about the water warning? God specifically says “water” might come in when they open “the hole” and if so, they should close it “that ye may not perish in the flood”. CGPT really wants water to be viewed as symbolic of the vacuum of space or radiation but I think that’s a pretty weak explanation. CGPT assumes the Jaredites made pit stops for air along the way, specifically mentioning Europa as a likely candidate. The issue is, you don’t get second chances if you open the hole and all the air is sucked out or deadly radiation comes in, so you have to assume (like CGPT) that this space journey involved pit stops at other planets with suitable atmospheres and that they never accidentally opened the hole at the wrong time. Bad theory CGPT, do better:

If the water mentioned in the passage is literal and part of an onboard water storage system for drinking and air production, the warning about opening the hole and water potentially coming in can be interpreted as a safety guideline for managing a closed-loop life support system. Here’s how this could work:

Onboard Water Storage and Air Production in a Closed System

1. Dual Function of Water:
   • Water might be stored not only for drinking but also as part of a system to produce breathable oxygen through processes such as electrolysis. This would require careful management of water levels and system integrity to avoid flooding or leaks.
2. The Role of “Holes” in the System:
   • The “hole in the top” could be a vent or access point connected to the air production chamber, where oxygen is being released.
   • The “hole in the bottom” might be related to water drainage or access to a water reservoir.
3. Risk of Flooding:
   • The warning about water entering when the hole is opened could relate to the risk of disrupting the balance of the system. If the water reservoir is not properly managed or if a valve is opened at the wrong time, water could flow into the air system, either:
     • Interfering with the production of oxygen.
     • Contaminating other parts of the life support system, leading to potential system failure.
4. Context for the Warning:
   • The instruction to “stop the hole” if water comes in suggests a need to monitor and control these access points carefully to prevent water from accidentally entering areas where it shouldn’t be.
   • For example:
     • If the “top hole” leads to a chamber where oxygen is collected, and water enters instead of air, it could compromise air quality or damage equipment.
     • If the “bottom hole” is part of the water storage, opening it might release water unexpectedly into the system.
5. Connection to Space Travel:
   • In space, managing water and air tightly within a confined environment is critical. A breach or imbalance in the system could have catastrophic consequences.
   • This warning emphasizes the delicate balance required in operating such a system, ensuring the crew knows when and how to use the access points to avoid unintended water intrusion.

Practical Application of the Warning

The warning can be seen as an instruction to:

• Use the holes judiciously, opening only when necessary to maintain air or access water.
• Seal the system quickly (“stop the hole”) if any unintended water flow occurs, preserving the functionality of the life support system.

This explanation supports the idea that the Jaredites’ vessels (or spacecraft) used advanced, divinely inspired systems for survival, which required careful operation and maintenance to ensure a successful journey.

I know nothing about such life support systems but they are real. The ISS, for example only holds about 500 gallons of water and recycles everything it can so the astronauts always have fresh water. The ISS also produces breathable air using the same electrolysis described above by CGPT. I imagine the risk of damage if the ISS water tank were to burst is rather substantial. If the water spread somewhere it shouldn’t, it could not only short out critical components, it could also freeze and break the ISS air seal.

In the Jaredite warning, it could be that the air and water systems are connected and if you bleed too much air out of the system and into the cabin, water can fill the void and exit the hole so God is just saying “if that happens, close the damn hole”.

I want to also point out how unworkable the two-hole system is in an oceanic voyage where the barges are driven by violent winds and waves, and being submerged on a regular basis. We could assume God would drive them for several hours at a time and then stop so the barges could resurface. Feeling things were calm, the Jaredites tentatively open the hatch. But again, if they get this wrong even once, thinking they are calmly at the surface when they are still submerged, they will never have a second chance.

That’s not to mention how violent such an ocean journey would be. By the time they got their first break I imagine there are several serious head wounds, human waste and vomit everywhere, the animals are in a riotous state or dead, and everything they carefully stored in the barge is broken and scattered. So, yeah, the two holes are tough to make work in the ocean, in fact I find it easier to make sense of them in space.

Perils of the voyage

In this section WJT points to some explicitly oceanic verbiage from God about how this journey is going to proceed:

For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the rains and the floods have I sent forth.

And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea? (Ether 2:23-25)

Well that sounds downright oceanic! CGPT has a solution though: read it as strictly metaphorical to space forces that are similar to oceanic forces, and honestly that’s not a bad way to go. It lists nebula, gas clouds, microgravity zones, gravitational waves, asteroid fields, gravity wells, black holes, space winds, plasma streams, and more as potential options. The idea here is that God uses terms they understand rather than giving an in depth lesson on general relativity.

I think it’s also possible that the oceanic verbiage was merely a function of the BoM being a cultural translation and since you can’t very well place the promised land in deep space for an 1830s audience, your best bet is to re-interpret the tale for ocean travel.

The voyage

WJT points to this excerpt from Ether with more explicit oceanic verbiage:

And it came to pass that when they had prepared all manner of food, that thereby they might subsist upon the water, and also food for their flocks and herds, and whatsoever beast or animal or fowl that they should carry with them—and it came to pass that when they had done all these things they got aboard of their vessels or barges, and set forth into the sea, commending themselves unto the Lord their God.

And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.

And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind.

And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters (Ether 6:4-7)

CGPT sticks to its guns here. These terms are just placeholders or substitutes for space terms:

In this interpretation, the passage remains literal but describes phenomena encountered in a turbulent region of space:

• The “sea” is a dense or turbulent space environment.
• “Winds” are literal forces propelling the vessel.
• “Waves,” “depths,” and “floods” correspond to physical forces, such as gravitational waves, particle streams, or dense interstellar material.
• The vessels’ design ensures survival, and divine intervention guides their journey, ensuring they navigate and overcome these literal challenges in the vastness of space.

WJT brings up God saying that the “monsters of the sea” and “whale” could not mar them. Don’t fret, my pet. CGPT to the rescue:

Here are the solutions for interpreting the references to a “whale” or “monster of the sea” in the context of a space journey:

• Asteroids or Meteoroids:
  • The “monsters of the sea” could represent large, fast-moving space debris capable of colliding with and damaging the vessels.
  • The vessels are divinely protected and designed to withstand such impacts.
• Black Holes or Gravitational Anomalies:
  • A “whale” could symbolize powerful cosmic entities, like black holes or regions of intense gravity, which might “mar” or disrupt the vessel’s journey.
  • Divine guidance ensures the vessels avoid or survive these dangers.
• Cosmic Radiation Storms:
  • “Monsters” might refer to high-energy radiation bursts, solar flares, or other energetic phenomena that could harm the occupants or systems.
  • The vessels are constructed to shield the Jaredites from such threats.
• Massive Celestial Bodies:
  • A “whale” might represent rogue planets, stars, or other massive objects that could cause collisions or gravitational interference.
  • The vessels’ trajectory is divinely controlled to navigate safely around such hazards.
• Dense Nebulae or Plasma Clouds:
  • The “sea” containing “monsters” could be a dense interstellar medium with turbulent flows that threaten to engulf the vessels.
  • The vessels’ sealed design and divine oversight protect them from destabilization.

Conclusion

Well I think this one is solved. Thanks, CGPT!

In all seriousness, I think the only way I can hang on to the space theory is to assume that their travels were re-interpreted during the translation process. Bill is a vocal advocate for a word-for-word literal BoM translation, and if so, I guess you would have to say Nephi and Moroni wrote it as an ocean journey for their own purposes. In Nephi’s case, that doesn’t make sense b/c he didn’t know what his Small Plates were for and so there is no reason for him to self-censor. In Moroni’s case we could say he did it to avoid blowing the minds of 1830s readers.

With all that said, I think I either have to double down on the cultural translation or I have to put the space theory in a box for now. With Bill gone AWOL I am a lone man in the wilderness on this theory which isn’t a lot of fun. But more than that…it just might not be workable.

Outcome TBD.